Thank you Griffins! So thought provoking, compelling and challenging on a personal level.
I think it also highlights just how desperately people desire to be led. Like sheep without a shepherd. No wonder Jesus was so harsh with the leaders of His day and no wonder leaders will be judged double.
There is a responsibility on leaders to be good shepherds like Jesus but also to do as you are doing, which is basically what Paul and the apostles did in their letters (but the modern online version), and that is to teach people to think through what they are being taught.
Great article... I read both The Body Keeps the Score and When the Body Says No while I was working at a social services organization for homeless people. Many of my co-workers also read them, and fully took them to be Gospel. Everything became about trauma to the extent where all our clients and their complex issues where reduced to their trauma, whether we knew about it or not. In my opinion in took away a lot of motivation for change because trauma was viewed as something people had no control over, since it was viewed as a bodily phenomenon, almost like having cancer or something. It's interesting to hear the critiques that are coming out, and ultimately, it reminds me that no one theory can solve or fully diagnose the complexity that is the human person.
The problem of people believing they have no control over their reactions because of trauma is only one example of what labeling through psychological testing does to people. Whether it’s the label of autism, ADHD or various other labels, I believe they are all ultimately detrimental. Like you said, no one can diagnose the complexity that is the human person. I wish that we would stop doing this!
"If you just took the time to open Love Wins or read an Arminian, you can see firsthand that it’s either more or less compelling than your own views. But most importantly, this will demythologize other viewpoints while reinforcing whichever one seems correct."
Yes, yes, and yes. There is such power in jumping outside of your camp and engaging with the thoughts of others. This section of your article reminded me of an excellent and short Andrew Wilson piece of the value of what he calls counter-point reading: https://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/counterpoint_reading. I've tried to do a little of that this year and it's been immensely helpful.
Oh man. I was not aware that van der Kolk was the one who came up with repressed memory theory
and I work in trauma therapy 😩🤯 for what it’s worth, I remember asking around colleagues if they had ever seen anyone recover a repressed memory spontaneously. No one ever had although therapists believed that it was possible.
Isn't that so weird? It makes sense though, in a way. I don't think Body Keeps the Score is inherently wrong or anything (there really are a ton of great tips), but I just feel a little more skeptical about it after doing some more research. Thank you for all the work you do!!
Yeah, it really bothered me for a while. And it’s an easy rabbit hole to fall down to think, have I repressed things? It’s easy to see with shoddy interviewing how kids could fabricate allegations. I worked in child protection and they’re very strict on what you can and can’t say when interviewing as children are suuuuper vulnerable to suggestion. It’s just disappointing as the EMDR approach and all those things have made great progress in treating PTSD, but it’s still a fallen world… 🤷🏼♀️
1.) It is increasingly rare for the era of repressed memories to be brought up in psychology programs. In a graduate cognition course I took it registered as new to everyone else except the professor, despite a loose familiarity with the Satanic Panic era, likely a result of years trying to sever the link between the field of developmental psychology with the devastating aftermath.
2.) van der Kolk's book is not a terrible read, and in fact includes a lot of resources for mind-body integration that people call for. To your point on a person's esteem amongst peers in the field, he fails not only on research, but conduct.
Full disclosure: I quite like The Body Keeps the Score, it is not hard to correct where needed, and I believe it deserves to stay in the general trauma literature. However, I read it as part of a master's course in 2017, right before it became gospel. Like with the Enneagram, people who use trauma literature as an excuse for their poor behaviour tend to be the ones who improve the least from adopting it.
Great insights!! And I don’t think the body keeps the score is entirely terrible either, just the specific aspect of it I highlighted above. I greatly appreciate this feedback though!!
Thanks for this article. It was interesting to read. I appreciate the challenge of assumptions about “experts.” This is something I think of often too.
I especially liked the reminder of what we are capable of creating if a morning is spent in prayer rather than on social media. 🙏
Excellent article. I’m continually impressed by your diligent research and thorough arguments. As a side note, I love “Death to Deconstruction,” haha, a great book. I had the chance to interview Porter and he seemed like a humble, legit guy.
He’s insanely unique. I’ve been listening to his sermons on the Van City podcast almost weekly for like 5 years. I remember listening to Comer’s sermons on the Bridgetown podcast and every once in awhile some nasally guy with dry humor would come on and I was always like “Who is this??” Seriously one of my favorite people. I’ll definitely check out your podcast!
I recently read a Substack article making some bold claims about Scripture and mental health. I got some good practice looking at each point and determining if it was true or not. I looked back to see what qualified the author to speak so confidently in these subjects and didn’t find much credibility. The words sounded good at first glance but some were flat out inaccurate. I’m thankful I’ve grown in being able to discern what I read.
Unfortunately the Christian world is plopped down into another one, and these two worlds, with their competing needs, are confusing. While we're told to work and care for our family, the job that lets us do that often expects us to use Satan's methods. And one of his most devious methods is to convince us that, if something's not visible, it isn't real.
The Christian world expects its' leaders to follow that OTHER KINGDOM and promote the successful to positions of leadership, rather than the obedient. This is a problem: sometimes obedience requires anonymity, which won't get us noticed.
And sometimes the most obedient people aren't photogenic or eloquent, so their advice will naturally be ignored.
I think it would depend on what context you’re looking at; if it’s a traditional mainline ecclesial context, then sure. But commitment to tradition doesn’t necessitate an innate expertise since anyone could memorize the outline of traditional structure and feign its implementation at least to some degree. I could be more than wrong, but I would hope at least some semblance of an impetus toward tradition or orthodoxy would fall under the banner of #1 from section 4: the effort to read widely (i.e., “reading from 2024 A.D. as much as 224 A.D.). It’s not perfect or explicit, but I’d generally hope that a critique of theological presentism might come across through that section.
grouping it under the banner of reading widely seems a little off to me. tradition in the general sense, so i think gadamer has the deepest insight here, is not a theoretical knowing that would come from reading widely, in fact tradition means you dont have to read widely at all, or is a condition of reading profitably, it is practical wisdom passed down through the generations. in the christian context this takes a more concrete form, i think apostolic tradition, what we see in 2 thess 2:15 is that traditions are to be upheld and revered, and really only orthodox if I am honest have preserved this sense. as a catholic i try to but it makes me a very queer bird in the rcc. but tradition feels like something you can lean on and is tied up with the sensus fidelium itself. expertise feels like another way of approaching the division of intellectual labor and a concomitant need to trust someone whose competency exceeds ones own. but you cant lean on expertise in the same way as tradition involves a sort of faith in history ,or providence in history, a democracy or meritocracy of the dead, so it involves an historical and existential depth that I think is different from expertise. but this was interesting for me to think through just now. thanks for this post.
Ohhhh I see what you mean now. Apologies, I wasn’t trying to justify the “reading widely” section as entirely semantic to “tradition,” I was just hoping it at least pointed to the need of studying our roots - which is definitely different from the sense in which you used it.
I think, in general, this might just be more of a conundrum between how you would define expertise and how I would define it (or the umbrella/banner that “expertise” encompasses). But coming from your angle, I do see the merit with which tradition could be meaningfully integrated as a foundational pillar. Good stuff.
Also, one of these days I will trick you into subscribing to me, mark my words
Ohhhhh don’t flatter me. I appreciate your thoughtful responses in general though. It helps keep Substack the kind of place where thoughtful conversations can happen!
More than 50 percent of research is ultimately shown to be wrong. So much for leaning on the fig leaf of peer reviews.
Rules of grammar or good writing? Give a manuscript to three or 10 editors and they will all notice or miss completely different things. Fact.
Selecting members for a professional orchestra? They would have to be objective experts, right? Or maybe not. Hold the auditions blind, the whole way through, and suddenly more women gain jobs in orchestras.
And on and on. The examples here could be endless, without even doing research, just off the top of my head.
The concept was repressed memories, rather than recovered memories, with the latter being the process. It was a massive stain on the entire psychology profession, and yet was quickly forgotten. There are still real people in real prisons based on that shocking fraud. The irony is that the whole counselling industry thrives because people can't forget trauma, not because they can easily forget and require extensive prompts to 'remember'.
The Body Keeps the Score kicked off and has continued to feed the apparently endless appetite for laying claim to trauma. Not everything is trauma, sometimes crap happens, it's living, it's painful, but it's not trauma. The entire trauma informed care concept is based on this nonsense.
White Fragility is a different story. I wasn't aware of the academic fraud accusations, which I don't much care to look into. What's concerning is the lack of critical thinking about the book that made her rich. It's so lacking in historic, political, and social content, but gosh, it apparently helped make a whole lot of white people feel better about doing the 'personal work', which will change exactly nothing, and requires so little from them.
Always good to trust but verify!
If people insist on being gullible fools and being susceptible to the latest trend without applying critical thinking, there's no help for them.
It's not that people rely on experts, often they don't, when they should, it's that people, these days, believe whatever they want to, they hold opinions about everything, without any logic, without evidence, without even knowing what valid evidence would look like.
The topic you've raised here should be discussed far more often, in a serious manner. Not the glib misinformation/distrust that we see rolled out ad nausea, leading absolutely nowhere.
Thank you Griffins! So thought provoking, compelling and challenging on a personal level.
I think it also highlights just how desperately people desire to be led. Like sheep without a shepherd. No wonder Jesus was so harsh with the leaders of His day and no wonder leaders will be judged double.
There is a responsibility on leaders to be good shepherds like Jesus but also to do as you are doing, which is basically what Paul and the apostles did in their letters (but the modern online version), and that is to teach people to think through what they are being taught.
Great article, thank you 🙏🏼
Ah thanks Anna I’m so happy you liked it :) and I totally agree with you; there’s definitely a desperation to be led and find voices we can trust!
Great article... I read both The Body Keeps the Score and When the Body Says No while I was working at a social services organization for homeless people. Many of my co-workers also read them, and fully took them to be Gospel. Everything became about trauma to the extent where all our clients and their complex issues where reduced to their trauma, whether we knew about it or not. In my opinion in took away a lot of motivation for change because trauma was viewed as something people had no control over, since it was viewed as a bodily phenomenon, almost like having cancer or something. It's interesting to hear the critiques that are coming out, and ultimately, it reminds me that no one theory can solve or fully diagnose the complexity that is the human person.
The problem of people believing they have no control over their reactions because of trauma is only one example of what labeling through psychological testing does to people. Whether it’s the label of autism, ADHD or various other labels, I believe they are all ultimately detrimental. Like you said, no one can diagnose the complexity that is the human person. I wish that we would stop doing this!
"If you just took the time to open Love Wins or read an Arminian, you can see firsthand that it’s either more or less compelling than your own views. But most importantly, this will demythologize other viewpoints while reinforcing whichever one seems correct."
Yes, yes, and yes. There is such power in jumping outside of your camp and engaging with the thoughts of others. This section of your article reminded me of an excellent and short Andrew Wilson piece of the value of what he calls counter-point reading: https://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/counterpoint_reading. I've tried to do a little of that this year and it's been immensely helpful.
Thanks man!!! I’ll check out that article for sure
Oh man. I was not aware that van der Kolk was the one who came up with repressed memory theory
and I work in trauma therapy 😩🤯 for what it’s worth, I remember asking around colleagues if they had ever seen anyone recover a repressed memory spontaneously. No one ever had although therapists believed that it was possible.
Isn't that so weird? It makes sense though, in a way. I don't think Body Keeps the Score is inherently wrong or anything (there really are a ton of great tips), but I just feel a little more skeptical about it after doing some more research. Thank you for all the work you do!!
Yeah, it really bothered me for a while. And it’s an easy rabbit hole to fall down to think, have I repressed things? It’s easy to see with shoddy interviewing how kids could fabricate allegations. I worked in child protection and they’re very strict on what you can and can’t say when interviewing as children are suuuuper vulnerable to suggestion. It’s just disappointing as the EMDR approach and all those things have made great progress in treating PTSD, but it’s still a fallen world… 🤷🏼♀️
Wow, crazy. You’re doing amazing work though; it’s wonderful to have people like you working in that field!!
A couple of anecdotes:
1.) It is increasingly rare for the era of repressed memories to be brought up in psychology programs. In a graduate cognition course I took it registered as new to everyone else except the professor, despite a loose familiarity with the Satanic Panic era, likely a result of years trying to sever the link between the field of developmental psychology with the devastating aftermath.
2.) van der Kolk's book is not a terrible read, and in fact includes a lot of resources for mind-body integration that people call for. To your point on a person's esteem amongst peers in the field, he fails not only on research, but conduct.
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/03/07/allegations-of-employee-mistreatment-roil-renowned-brookline-trauma-center/
Full disclosure: I quite like The Body Keeps the Score, it is not hard to correct where needed, and I believe it deserves to stay in the general trauma literature. However, I read it as part of a master's course in 2017, right before it became gospel. Like with the Enneagram, people who use trauma literature as an excuse for their poor behaviour tend to be the ones who improve the least from adopting it.
Great insights!! And I don’t think the body keeps the score is entirely terrible either, just the specific aspect of it I highlighted above. I greatly appreciate this feedback though!!
Thanks for this article. It was interesting to read. I appreciate the challenge of assumptions about “experts.” This is something I think of often too.
I especially liked the reminder of what we are capable of creating if a morning is spent in prayer rather than on social media. 🙏
Glad you liked it!!
Way to go! Excellent essay!.
Thanks!!
Excellent article. I’m continually impressed by your diligent research and thorough arguments. As a side note, I love “Death to Deconstruction,” haha, a great book. I had the chance to interview Porter and he seemed like a humble, legit guy.
Whaaaaat Josh Porter is one of my favorite communicators in the whole Christian space that is amazing!!
Yeah Dude, same honestly. I love Josh’s style as a communicator and thinker. He’s a pretty unique voice too (orthodoxy plus punk rock vibes)
He’s insanely unique. I’ve been listening to his sermons on the Van City podcast almost weekly for like 5 years. I remember listening to Comer’s sermons on the Bridgetown podcast and every once in awhile some nasally guy with dry humor would come on and I was always like “Who is this??” Seriously one of my favorite people. I’ll definitely check out your podcast!
That’s awesome!! I’ll have to check out his sermons, didn’t realize they were on a podcast!
I wasn’t a particularly good interviewer, and it was a couple of years ago, but I’ve dropped the link here:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0vWv3Si4iiuwIKXqdSjQVj?si=lIV5nwkSQeSpw3QmM-bKBg
I recently read a Substack article making some bold claims about Scripture and mental health. I got some good practice looking at each point and determining if it was true or not. I looked back to see what qualified the author to speak so confidently in these subjects and didn’t find much credibility. The words sounded good at first glance but some were flat out inaccurate. I’m thankful I’ve grown in being able to discern what I read.
That’s great!!! And kudos to you for learning the ropes of discernment that’s amazing
Super insightful! What about a strong Social IQ 😆 being a way to determine experts ? Jk
Unfortunately the Christian world is plopped down into another one, and these two worlds, with their competing needs, are confusing. While we're told to work and care for our family, the job that lets us do that often expects us to use Satan's methods. And one of his most devious methods is to convince us that, if something's not visible, it isn't real.
The Christian world expects its' leaders to follow that OTHER KINGDOM and promote the successful to positions of leadership, rather than the obedient. This is a problem: sometimes obedience requires anonymity, which won't get us noticed.
And sometimes the most obedient people aren't photogenic or eloquent, so their advice will naturally be ignored.
Amen, Gavin! Great thoughts.
Wow! Just wow!
Glad you liked it!!
doesnt tradition present itself as an alternative to expertise in the christian context?
I think it would depend on what context you’re looking at; if it’s a traditional mainline ecclesial context, then sure. But commitment to tradition doesn’t necessitate an innate expertise since anyone could memorize the outline of traditional structure and feign its implementation at least to some degree. I could be more than wrong, but I would hope at least some semblance of an impetus toward tradition or orthodoxy would fall under the banner of #1 from section 4: the effort to read widely (i.e., “reading from 2024 A.D. as much as 224 A.D.). It’s not perfect or explicit, but I’d generally hope that a critique of theological presentism might come across through that section.
grouping it under the banner of reading widely seems a little off to me. tradition in the general sense, so i think gadamer has the deepest insight here, is not a theoretical knowing that would come from reading widely, in fact tradition means you dont have to read widely at all, or is a condition of reading profitably, it is practical wisdom passed down through the generations. in the christian context this takes a more concrete form, i think apostolic tradition, what we see in 2 thess 2:15 is that traditions are to be upheld and revered, and really only orthodox if I am honest have preserved this sense. as a catholic i try to but it makes me a very queer bird in the rcc. but tradition feels like something you can lean on and is tied up with the sensus fidelium itself. expertise feels like another way of approaching the division of intellectual labor and a concomitant need to trust someone whose competency exceeds ones own. but you cant lean on expertise in the same way as tradition involves a sort of faith in history ,or providence in history, a democracy or meritocracy of the dead, so it involves an historical and existential depth that I think is different from expertise. but this was interesting for me to think through just now. thanks for this post.
Ohhhh I see what you mean now. Apologies, I wasn’t trying to justify the “reading widely” section as entirely semantic to “tradition,” I was just hoping it at least pointed to the need of studying our roots - which is definitely different from the sense in which you used it.
I think, in general, this might just be more of a conundrum between how you would define expertise and how I would define it (or the umbrella/banner that “expertise” encompasses). But coming from your angle, I do see the merit with which tradition could be meaningfully integrated as a foundational pillar. Good stuff.
Also, one of these days I will trick you into subscribing to me, mark my words
ha i thought i already was! i guess you are restacked so frequently it gave me the same impression.
Ohhhhh don’t flatter me. I appreciate your thoughtful responses in general though. It helps keep Substack the kind of place where thoughtful conversations can happen!
More than 50 percent of research is ultimately shown to be wrong. So much for leaning on the fig leaf of peer reviews.
Rules of grammar or good writing? Give a manuscript to three or 10 editors and they will all notice or miss completely different things. Fact.
Selecting members for a professional orchestra? They would have to be objective experts, right? Or maybe not. Hold the auditions blind, the whole way through, and suddenly more women gain jobs in orchestras.
And on and on. The examples here could be endless, without even doing research, just off the top of my head.
The concept was repressed memories, rather than recovered memories, with the latter being the process. It was a massive stain on the entire psychology profession, and yet was quickly forgotten. There are still real people in real prisons based on that shocking fraud. The irony is that the whole counselling industry thrives because people can't forget trauma, not because they can easily forget and require extensive prompts to 'remember'.
The Body Keeps the Score kicked off and has continued to feed the apparently endless appetite for laying claim to trauma. Not everything is trauma, sometimes crap happens, it's living, it's painful, but it's not trauma. The entire trauma informed care concept is based on this nonsense.
White Fragility is a different story. I wasn't aware of the academic fraud accusations, which I don't much care to look into. What's concerning is the lack of critical thinking about the book that made her rich. It's so lacking in historic, political, and social content, but gosh, it apparently helped make a whole lot of white people feel better about doing the 'personal work', which will change exactly nothing, and requires so little from them.
Always good to trust but verify!
If people insist on being gullible fools and being susceptible to the latest trend without applying critical thinking, there's no help for them.
It's not that people rely on experts, often they don't, when they should, it's that people, these days, believe whatever they want to, they hold opinions about everything, without any logic, without evidence, without even knowing what valid evidence would look like.
The topic you've raised here should be discussed far more often, in a serious manner. Not the glib misinformation/distrust that we see rolled out ad nausea, leading absolutely nowhere.
I appreciate this thoughtful response! Thanks for taking the time to think through it and share!
Great article. I wish it would be required reading for all online "experts."
Not a very substantive response, but with recent events, this is what first came to mind!
So glad you liked it!!
I'm especially fed up with celebrity Christians being put forward as experts.
And celebrity pastors and celebrity Christian leaders.
Both have embarrassed themselves & our faith in the past few weeks, months, and years.
Architect and Demolition experts say WTC in NY was a controlled demo lition. And the Media was deceiving the world.
I read the first point, I will continue the rest